trumpets

A major stumbling block for post tribulationists and recapitulationists?

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Revelation 7:1-4

After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree.   Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”  Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

This scripture appears after the sixth seal is opened and just before the seventh seal is mentioned and just before the Seven Trumpets sound.   It is part of the Interlude between the sixth and the seventh seal.  The other part of the Interlude being the rapture of the great multitude.

The four angels mentioned in the scripture above are considered to be the same angels as the those who hold the first four trumpets. 

Pre tribulationists argue that this is proof that the seals and the  trumpets cannot be simultaneous as stated by recapitulationists (post tribulationists), or at least the trumpets cannot precede the sixth seal.  The seals trumpets and bowls, therefore, occur sequentially.

Pre tribulationists contend that the rapture is after the sixth seal when the Great Multitude appear in heaven just before the seventh seal is opened and certainly before the seven trumpets (which are considered to be the wrath of God). 

Pre tribulationists consider the events of the first sixth seals are not part of the great tribulation.  (Given that a quarter of the Earth’s population are killed when the 4th seal is opened, this is a bit hard to accept)

Post tribulationists tend to be recapitulationists, stating that various visions in revelation recapitulate and occur simultaneously with other visions in Revelation thereby adding to their meaning.   Like pretribulationists, they place the rapture after the sixth seal immediately before the seventh seal is opened.  The rapture is also linked to the seventh trumpet which is concurrent with or simultaneous with the seventh seal.

God’s wrath is then poured out on the nations; namely the seven bowls of God’s wrath which are also part of the seventh Trumpet.

How then do post tribulationists account for this scripture which suggests that the trumpet judgements follow the seals sequentially rather than occur simulatanously with the seals.

Rev 6:12 & 14

The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 

Here we see the ‘Woman’ (Israel) flees to the wilderness where she is taken care of for 1260 days – this is the entire duration of the Great tribulation!  Could this ‘Women’ (Israel) be sealed and protected right from the beginning of the Great Tribulation, before any seals are opened or any trumpets are sounded?

This would mean that the vision of the 144000 being sealed from the 12 tribes of Israel does not occur in the same sequence that it is appears in Revelation.  It is a self contained vision that happens to be placed in the interlude between the 6th and the 7th seal.

It is simply not possible to describe the picture in Revelation and maintain sequence without becoming very disorganized. 

Revelation is like a picture and John describes the elements sequentially one at a time but not necessarily in time sequence. 

Revelation is not like a scanner or a fax machine scanning a picture from one end to the other.

Rev 11:2-3

But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.  And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 

Just as there is an interlude between the sixth and the seventh seal, there is also an interlude between the six and the seventh trumpet.

The 144000 Jews are sealed and the great multitude appear in heaven in the interlude between the 6th and the 7th seal.  The Holy city is trampled by the Gentiles for 42 months and the two witnesses prophesy for 1260 days in the interlude between the 6th and the 7th trumpet.   (An angel with a little scroll also appears in this interlude)

The rapture of the Great multitude occurs in an instant and therefore could well take place at this point in the Revelation sequence just before or when the seven seal is opened.

The ‘Women’ (Israel) is protected for 1260 days.  The  actual sealing of the 144000 is therefore likely to have occurred substantially before the time that it is mentioned in the Revelation sequence.  Indeed, it is more than likely that the 1260 days end at the point it is mentioned in the revelation sequence. 

Just as the 144000 from the 12 tribes of Israel are sealed and protected for the entire duration of the Great Tribulation, the Gentiles will trample the Holy City for 42 months and the two witnesses will prophesy for 1260 days.

The visions of the Gentiles trampling the Holy City for 42 months and the two witnesses prophesying for 1260 days are in the interlude between the 6th and the 7th trumpet.

When the seventh Trumpet sounds, the kingdom of this world becomes the kingdom of our Lord.  We are at the conclusion of this age.  That is it.  There is no more 42 months to come and no more 1260 days to come.  The 42 months and the 1260 days, therefore, end with the sounding of the seventh trumpet.

As with the sealing of the  144000, the place in scripture where they are mentioned corresponds to the end of the 1260 days or 42 months over which they occur.

In other words, the Gentiles started trampling the Holy City 42 months before the seventh trumpet sounds and the two witnesses prophesied for 1260 days up until the sounding of the seventh trumpet.

Similarly, the 144000 from the 12 tribes of Israel were sealed and protected 1260 days before the seventh seal was opened. 

The Great Tribulation lasts 1260 days and begins with the revelation of the Antichrist when the first seal is opened.   (2Thes 2:3)

This means that the 144000 Jews are sealed at the beginning of the Great Tribulation before any seals are opened and before any trumpets are sounded.

Thus even if the seals and the trumpets are totally simultaneous, there is no conflict with Revelations 7:2-3

He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 

Therefore, these verses should not be a stumbling block to Post Tribulationists who believe in simultaneous recapitulating visions in revelation.

 

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http://truthinlove.com/References/seven_seals_trumpets_bowls.htm

http://truthinlove.com/analogies/seven_seals.htm

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Simultaneous Seals and Trumpets

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If the seals and the trumpets are simultaneous, with an angel sounding a trumpet whenever a seal is opened, then seal one coincides with trumpet 1, seal two coincides with trumpet 2, seal three coincides with trumpet 3 and so on.

When the first seal is broken, the Antichrist is revealed.   The first trumpet sounds and then a third of the Earth’s trees and grass is burnt up.  When the second seal is broken, war is unleashed.  The second trumpet sounds and a third of the sea turns to blood and a third of the sea creatures die and a third of the ships are destroyed.  When the third seal is opened, famine is rampant.  The third trumpet sounds and a star falls from the sky turning a third of the fresh waters bitter.  When the fourth seal is opened, death abounds.  The fourth trumpet sounds and a third of the sky is darkened blocking the light of the sun and moon.  When the fifth seal is opened the martyrs cry out.  The fifth trumpet sounds and locusts come out of the abyss to torment those with the mark of the beast for 5 months. When the sixth seal is opened, signs appear in the sky and earthquakes shake the Earth.  Men try to hide from Gods impending wrath. The sixth trumpet sounds – 200 million mounted troops are released to kill one third of all mankind.  Still man does not repent!

Next, the 144000 Jews are sealed and a great multitude appear in heaven.  When the seventh seal was opened, there was silence in heaven for half an hour.  The seventh trumpet sounds as the seventh seal is opened and the mystery of God is accomplished.  The little scroll is opened,  the two witnesses finish prophesying for 1260 days and then they are raptured.   Jerusalem has been trampled for 42 months.  The time for judging the dead in Christ has come. The church is raptured and the first resurrection takes place.  God pours out the seven bowls of his wrath as he leads an army of believers to strike down the nations.  The nations are separated into the Sheep and the Goats.

Finally, the Kingdom of this world becomes the Kingdom of our Lord and his Messiah.

There are no clashes, in fact this paints a glorious picture that only God could have conceived.

It paints a picture with signs that could not be missed or mistaken for something else.

While the seventh seal and the seventh trumpet appear to be simultaneous events associated with the second coming of Christ, we cannot be so sure that the other trumpets are simultaneous with the other seals.

http://truthinlove.com/References/seven_seals_trumpets_bowls.htm

http://truthinlove.com/analogies/seven_seals.htm

Reasons for believing the Seals and Trumpets are Simultaneous

The church is raptured at the last trumpet (1Cor 15:51-52)

The last trumpet is when the Mystery of God is accomplished (Rev 10:7)

The Last Trumpet is when the Kingdom of this World becomes the Kingdom of our Lord and his Messiah (Rev 11:15)

The Last Trumpet is when it is time to judge the dead and reward the prophets and those who revere God’s name (Rev 11:18)

The Last Trumpet is when God pours his wrath out on the Nations (Rev 11:18)

The last seal is also associated with these events

God’s wrath follows the sixth seal (Rev 6:17)

God’s wrath is not poured out until after the Church has been raptured (1Thes 5:9)

The Great Multitude appear in heaven when the rapture occurs (Rev 7:9-17) just before the seventh seal is mentioned

The little scroll is presented open just before the seventh trumpet (Rev 10:1-11)

The Little scroll is the same scroll that the Lamb has been opening, one seal at a time

This scroll is almost certainly a chapter of the Book of Life which contains the names of born again believers

(There is another chapter of the book of life which is opened at the end of the Millennium when it is time to judge non-believers)

It is fitting that the rapture of the Church should occur when the seventh seal on the scroll is opened

After all, creation has been waiting in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed (Rom 8:18-24)

The rapture is mentioned in several places in Revelation; Revelation is not entirely sequential

The rapture of the church, followed by God’s judgement of the nations, is also mentioned in Revelations 14:14-16:21 and Revelation 19:1-21

The rapture of the Church is followed by God’s wrath on the Nations, both of which seem to occur at the seventh seal and the seventh trumpet

Thus there is good reason for believing that the seventh Seal and the Seventh trumpet are concurrent events in heaven.

In fact the rapture appears to occur in the twinkling of an eye at the beginning of the seventh trumpet (Rev 10:7). The rapture, if it does not precede the seventh seal being opened, would also appear to occur the instant that the seventh seal is opened (Rev 8:1) and then there is silence in heaven for half an hour.

The implication is that the other trumpets (trumpets 1 to 6) precede the seventh seal (as the seventh trumpet is concurrent with the seventh seal)

Could then the other trumpets correspond to the other seals?

Coud seal 1 be coincident with trumpet 1, seal 2 coincident with trumpet 2, seal 3 – trumpet 3 and so forth?

If this were true then when Christ opens a seal, an angel sounds a trumpet.

For those who are watching, this would serve as a warning that Christ’s return is becoming more imminent.

What would it look like if the seals and the trumpets were aligned?

Are there any events that cannot go together or would clash?

trib_to_scale

The seven Bowls are part of the Last Trumpet

 

http://truthinlove.com/References/seven_seals_trumpets_bowls.htm

http://truthinlove.com/analogies/seven_seals.htm

Failing to realize that the seventh trumpet is concurrent with the seventh seal results in confusion as to when the rapture occurs.

 

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The great multitude appearing in heaven is closely related to the seventh seal being opened.  The great multitude appear in heaven when the rapture takes place.

For those who believe that the trumpets follow sequentially after the seals, the rapture is thought to occur pre-tribulation when the sixth or seventh seal is opened (the trumpets being God’s wrath).  These brothers and sisters then have to explain away the verses that link the rapture to the seventh trumpet.  The first six seals certainly sound like tribulation too!

For those who believe in sequential seals and trumpets, and believe the rapture is at the last trumpet (post tribulation), they have to explain away the fact that the great multitude appearing in heaven is closely linked to the sixth and seventh seals.

If the Seventh trumpet is concurrent with the seventh seal, then there is no discrepancy.  The Church is raptured in the twinkling of an eye as soon as the seventh trumpet begins to sound (Rev 10:7).  The rapture is post-tribulation (after 1260 days) but pre-wrath (before the bowls of God’s wrath are poured out during the seventh trumpet).

The Church will be spared God’s wrath (1Thes 5:9) which is poured out when the seventh trumpet sounds.  (Rev 11:18)

The Church will be raptured at the last trumpet as soon as it sounds (Rev 10:7 & 1Cor 15:51-52).

Jerusalem will be trampled for 42 months (Revelations 11:2) while the two prophets prophesy for 1260 days (Rev 11:3).

Israel will be protected for 1260 days; times time and time and a half.  (Rev 12:6,14) while the dragon pursues her offspring (the Church). (Rev 12:17)

The beast is given authority for 42 months to make war against God’s holy people and conquer them.  (Rev 13:5-7)

Then the seventh trumpet sounds (Rev 11:15) and the rapture and the first resurrection take place. (Rev 10:7 & 1Cor 15:51-52)

 

http://truthinlove.com/References/seven_seals_trumpets_bowls.htm

http://truthinlove.com/analogies/seven_seals.htm

 

trib_to_scale

The seven Bowls are part of the Last Trumpet

Synchronized seals and trumpets. 1st woe = 5th trumpet, 2nd woe = 6th trumpet, 3rd woe = seventh trumpet (and the seven bowls therein)

Synchronized seals and trumpets. The first woe corresponds to the fifth trumpet and the second woe corresponds to the sixth trumpet. The bowls are the third woe and occur during the seventh trumpet

The seven Bowls are part of the Last Trumpet

http://truthinlove.com

http://truthinlove.com.au/References/seventh_trumpet.htm

The Seven Bowls are part of the Seventh Trumpet. They are the Third Woe.

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The seven bowls are the third woe. They are part of the Seventh Trumpet. When the seventh trumpet sounds, Jesus returns to rapture the Church and resurrect sleeping believers. Once the Church has been removed from the Earth, God pours out his wrath on the pagans (unbelievers among the nations)

http://truthinlove.com/References/last_trumpet.htm